What's a Blog?
Published on May 1, 2008 By Mumblefratz In Metaverse

Forgive my use of such a dramatic title to this thread but it's clear to me and many others that this is precisely the word that applies.

I know that it's a dangerous word to use because there are many shades of activity that many people look at in a very different light. There's cheese, there's milking and then there is outright cheating. The problem is that while everyone can think of various activities that obviously fall into one of these categories there are many potentially grey areas between them where people may see things differently.

The other part about an actual accusation of cheating is one of evidence. What constitutes sufficient evidence for something to be considered cheating? Clearly a cheat flag detected is one (hence the name). But even in the case where a game is cheat flagged, care is taken to not specifically throw around accusations of outright cheating, and in general rightly so. There is no reason to cause any more embarrassment than necessary and the cheat flag speaks for itself. Also cheat flags have occurred in error to even the most reputable of players for no explainable reason.

Take for example the best player that I ever knew, Mangumaniac. He received a cheat flag on a game with a score and settings that he had achieved many times both before and after with no cheat flag. He hardly even mentioned the fact. At one point when someone else had questioned what they had felt was an undeserved cheat flag he mentioned his case along with an opinion to what may have caused it. In some way it’s almost a badge of honor. To take an undeserved cheat flag on a high scoring game that most folks would give their eye teeth to achieve, the truly great player merely shrugs it off as just one of those things.

While I haven’t personally had a game cheat flagged, I have had a very high scoring game that wouldn’t submit. At first I was annoyed to say the least but when it became clear that there was really nothing that could be done I at least tried to live up to the example that Mag had set and shrug it off.

But I digress. The point is that although a cheat flag is evidence, it is not incontrovertible. The issue I have is that I have far less evidence then even a cheat flag yet even so I honestly believe that the accusation is warranted.

So what is the evidence that I do have to make such an accusation? Very little actually. The only evidence I have is when some otherwise unknown player achieves a score that is close to 100 times the score the best known players could achieve. To me that’s more evidence of cheating than any cheat flag could ever be.

Keep in mind that I’m not talking about someone getting 40K on a game that an acknowledged expert could achieve 20K. I’m not even talking about a game where someone gets 200K on a game that the so called expert would only expect to achieve 20K. What I’m talking about is a game where someone achieves 2 million points on a game that the best players might expect to achieve 20 to 30K.

This is precisely the level that I’m talking about. Like I said this can be a slippery slope. People come up with new strategies, cheese, exploits etc. all the time. While some may object to such things mostly they don't stoop to the level of actual cheating. But how can one be sure that there is outright cheating based only on the absolute value of the score?

There is the idea of reasonable doubt. That some unknown player could post a game 10 times the score of the best known experts is not outside the realm of reasonability. That some unknown player could post a game 100 times the score of the best known experts is. While this is a slippery slope I feel confident that 100 times is safely beyond the realm of reasonable.

The issue is that Stardock cannot take action based on this "evidence" and rightly so. Stardock needs hard proof and in these cases there is none. However the fact that Stardock is prohibited from taking any action due to the lack of any hard evidence doesn’t mean that the weight of forum opinion needs to be held to the same rules of evidence. In fact the AltMeta as a non-official media is able to make such distinction.

Also as I mentioned the good opinion of your fellow players is really what is sought when one strives for high metaverse scores and as the fellow players involved we have every right to withhold the respect that otherwise would be due to someone that achieved such scores.

Therefore I want to use this thread to highlight those extremely few players that any reasonable person would be certain is cheating.

Again I want to highlight that this is in no way an attempt to be petty or vindictive, it is merely an attempt to uphold the integrity of the metaverse.

So without further ado I want to present two players that I believe deserve the title of

Cheaters

Spacetimer

Who achieved 2 million points on a 2 year small galaxy suicidal DA v1.80g game when the best players in the game would expect to achieve 30K tops.

DJMJB

Who achieved 1.4 million points on a 0 year small challenging DL v1.5 game when again the best players in the game would expect to achieve 30K tops.

Harborne

Harborne used illegal characters to boost his empire score by using and maniplulating the serial numbers that he got from beta testing. It's expected that Cari will eliminate the illegal characters and move all posted games to his single legal character so the effect is hopefully correctable although the intent stands for itself.

In the words of Kryo...

Exploiting the metaverse in this manner is unacceptable; everyone else is limited to three characters per copy, and using loopholes to circumvent the scoring mechanisms and artificially boost your empire's standing will not be tolerated.


I want to stress that I make this accusation with all due seriousness and concern for the possibility of someone's presumed innocence. I would ask that anyone choosing to add a name to this list make the accusation with the same care and concern. This should not be a place to post something that's merely questionable. There should be not the slightest doubt about any name placed here.


Comments (Page 4)
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on Jul 22, 2008
HMMMM... First time checking into this. Well cheaters are well just that, cheaters, I would like to see what they have to say.... But I guess there are no offers on that.
on Jul 23, 2008
Don't discount a players just because they are flagged, it isn't perfect.


well put neilo
on Sep 09, 2008

Mumble, have you checked out the GSC thread? I would like for Harborne to be placed on the cheaters list. Read up on what happned mate or we can chat about it at ToE.com but i beleive he qualifies as a cheater as much as if not more than the other two.

 

Anyone else agree?

on Sep 09, 2008

I definitely agree that Harborne should be added to the list.  I think that his use of multiple fake characters clearly shows deliberate intent to cheat.  His statement that he didnt know that this would be considered cheating is without any credibility.  I have had suspicions about him for a while now, but wasnt able to pin down anything solid as to how or what he was doing.  Kudos to Neilo for getting the information out.

It's my opinion that he should be banned from both the Metaverse and the forums for cheating and being abusive to other players.  These are both serious violations that cant be ignored.  I strongly urge the admins to take much stronger punitive actions than they have thus far.

Kzinti empire2.JPG Sentient species taste better...

on Sep 09, 2008

There has been some other conversations in the GSC thread itself. I think Motti has spoken up somewhat in Harborne's defense. I'm also not sure what other communication has happened behind the scenes. Anyway I'm not fully up on the issue so if my understanding is incomplete or even wrong then please let me know.

However there are significant differences between Harborne's case and the two folks mentioned in the OP of this thread. For one Harborne is present on the forums and so we can talk with him and discuss the issue and hopefully come to some kind of resolution. Another difference is that I don't believe that there's any question of any particular submitted game being considered a cheat only that the characters each game was submitted under were not necessarily "valid".

This is cheating more on the empire level than the individual level. By that I mean any one characters submissions were played by someone whose submissions were just as valid as anyone else's it's just that the empire was "padded" out unfairly.

While I'm not saying that this in itself wasn't wrong, it seems to me that if he's promised to "go and sin no more" I would be in favor of forgiveness. I mean we can all do the same thing to a minimal and assumedly legally allowed extent with the three characers that everyone has. There's also the question of spending as little as $9.99 for a second DL license and getting another 3 characters. This could probably be argued either way as well.

I think all in all while I'm not condoning Harbourne's actions, I do consider it less of an offense than a hex edited 2 million point small galaxy game and while I also don't necessarily buy the argument that he didn't realize what he was doing, I would also tend to encourage forgiveness as long as it was promised that the undesired activity was stopped *and* it's reasonably possible for others to determine that the activity has indeed stopped.

on Sep 09, 2008

I accept that he did not cheat in gaining higher scores in any one game that he played but i think cheating on any level, not just in game scores should be treated the same. He circumvented the MV safeguards to enhance his score by spreading it across extra characters that he did not obtain legally.

To me thats cheating.

on Sep 09, 2008

To me thats cheating.
I'm not denying that.

I'm just saying if the guy admits it and promises not to do it again then I personally would be in favor of forgiveness over prosecution.

In fact, I would have the same opinion about either of the two people mentioned in the OP of this thread if either were ever to show up on the forums, admit what and how they did it and promise not to do it again.

However, being willing to forgive someone does not require me to be stupid, nor does it gaurantee that continued or future bad behavior will be automatically forgiven. It just means that I'm willing to give folks a 2nd chance as long as they make a reasonable effort at showing remorse.

These page render times are a real kill joy.

#::1  balsa01   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000250   Page Render Time: 0:0:42:875 (42875ms)
on Sep 09, 2008

Edit - deleted.

on Sep 09, 2008

Well if Spacetimer apologized and played some normal games does that mean he was not a cheater? Would his name be off the list. If the community feels Harborne is deserving of a second chance, and his behaviour should suggest otherwise frankly, thats fine. But it does not take away from teh fact he cheated. Isnt that what the list about. He cheated he should be on the list, but perhpas with a notation of his actions after being caught that reflects his efforts, if they are forthcoming, to show his remorse.

I see both your points guys, i just feel that forgiving someone and accepting that they wont cheat again is not enough to keep them off the list.

You cheat, you listed as such. Notes could be added to reflect changes in their status.

on Sep 09, 2008

LOL...well i got to read it before he deleted...and boy i can tell you..the things mentioned.....

 

Who'd have thought......nah...i'll leave it to your imaginations....

on Sep 09, 2008

Neilo
LOL...well i got to read it before he deleted...and boy i can tell you..the things mentioned.....

Who'd have thought......nah...i'll leave it to your imaginations....

I deleted it because I wanted to edit it and didn't think I'd have time before a reply came in.  Looks like I was right. 

Anyway, it's true that I spoke up for Harborne at first, but the bottom line is that he cheated.  After I spoke up for him, I expected him to man up to it and regain some sense of honor.  Instead, he went on a tirade against Neilo and Kryo.  He then went on a rampage against our entire empire.

Harborne has no honor in my view.  He is my enemy and is the only person who has been able to reach that point with me on these forums.  He has done dispicable things after being caught and even after being given a second chance. 

Banning someone should only be done as a last resort.  I won't encourage that but to be honest, I wouldn't cry a tear if it happenned in this case.

on Sep 09, 2008

MottiKhan
Quoting Neilo, reply 5LOL...well i got to read it before he deleted...and boy i can tell you..the things mentioned..... Who'd have thought......nah...i'll leave it to your imaginations....
I deleted it because I wanted to edit it and didn't think I'd have time before a reply came in.  Looks like I was right. 

 

That's what YOU say NOW. I read the original post, and I'm still blushing.

on Sep 09, 2008

After I spoke up for him, I expected him to man up to it and regain some sense of honor. Instead, he went on a tirade against Neilo and Kryo. He then went on a rampage against our entire empire.
Well like I said, I haven't been that involved so I don't know what's been said and with these 1 minute per click forum access times I'm not about to go searching for all the he said/she said.

If you say he's already been given a 2nd chance and has decided to essentially not accept it then I have no issue listing him in the OP. However could someone give me a two or three sentance summary of his offence so that I can list it along with his name?

Still I would hold out the possibility of forgiveness for all those listed here. As you say he was given the chance to "man up" and declined but everyone should realize that is a very difficult thing to do. It's only natural that he felt attacked and acted defensively. If that spilled over to abuse of Kryo and others on this forum then that's regretable as well. I've been around the block enough times to realize that you can't reach everyone but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least make the attempt.

on Sep 09, 2008

could someone give me a two or three sentance summary of his offence so that I can list it along with his name?

Harborne was using bogus characters to boost his empire score.  He had and still has many characters attached to his one legal game.  He did this by using and maniplulating the serial numbers that he got from beta testing.  His characters were/are...

Jack Oneill Of SG-1    
Lord Baal        
Micheal Of The Hybrids    
Ronon            
BRatac The Free Jaffa    
Cameron Mitchell Of SG-1
Valaa Mal Doran        
Mumm-Ra The Ever Living    
Todd Of The Wraith    
The Ori            
Rodney McKay    
Demon The Good Kzinti
Daniel Jackson Of SG-1
Samantha Carter Of SG-1    
Beth Koopa        
Iggy Koopa        
Charley B. Koopa

Plus one other that he has now renamed as Charley B Koopa.

 

There is also a suspect group that hasn't been caught yet and might or might not be part of the ruse...

Hathor
Yu Huang Shang Ti
Thor Of The Asgard

With so many people in his empire, it would take quite a while to find them all.  I'm not sure if he's cooperating by naming the bogus characters or if he's just seeing how many get caught by stardock.

 

In the words of Kryo...

Exploiting the metaverse in this manner is unacceptable; everyone else is limited to three characters per copy, and using loopholes to circumvent the scoring mechanisms and artificially boost your empire's standing will not be tolerated.

on Sep 09, 2008

With so many people in his empire, it would take quite a while to find them all. I'm not sure if he's cooperating by naming the bogus characters or if he's just seeing how many get caught by stardock.

 

We can search by serial key.

Basically where it stands right now, is that we're just waiting for Cari to get a chance to shove all of his games over to the Harborne account.

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